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AndyS333 Profile
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Registered: 03-2006
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Pastor Rick,

You make some good points. As I said, I didn't intend to start a debate, but I do plan on responding to your points. Hopefully, in a day or two.

Maybe by discussing our differences further, we will both understand each other and even our own positions better.

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Catholic P and F
Oct/17/2006, 12:32 pm Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
Susan Blair Profile
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Registered: 06-2006
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi,

I really like it when everybody can talk about how they believe without getting into a fight emoticon

Makes me feel like I can really learn something instead of picking sides...

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God Bless You,
Susan
Oct/17/2006, 12:37 pm Link to this post Send Email to Susan Blair   Send PM to Susan Blair
 
AndyS333 Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Me too Susan. I totally agree. The internet is riddled with "competitions" where no one learns anything.

IMO, dialogue should be about learning and coming to the truth together, not about winning a debate.

We won't agree on everything, and there truly is objective truth to be preached and defended. Preaching the truth in charity allows the Spirit to move among us. Without charity, the truth will sound as a clanging gong.

At least we can try to understand the other guys' point of view before attacking it. I've found most folks have sound reasons for holding their beliefs, even if I believe they're in error. Most reasonable people don't fit the typical stereotypes that are out there.

Liked what you had to say. That's why I had to reply instead of researching a response to Pastor Rick. I'll get to your post Pastor, God willing.

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Catholic P and F
Oct/17/2006, 1:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
AndyS333 Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Pastor Rick,


The trouble with your analogy here is that in the present day the true power rests not with the monarch but with the prime minister (even though technically speaking the monarch does have a veto authority it is never used). This makes the Prime Minister the de facto head of state with the monarch placed in a ceremonial position. I am positive this is not what you mean is it?



No, that is NOT what I meant. Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt and recognizing that, Pastor.

I don’t see the prime minister in the way you describe. That sounds like the modern United Kingdom model. Instead, I meant a prime minister in the Old Testament model, especially in the Davidic Kingdom, or even under Solomon. In that model, I don’t believe that “true power” rested in the hands of the prime minister, or that the prime minister was the de facto head of state with the monarch placed in a ceremonial position. Instead, the king delegated certain authority to the prime minister to help him govern and the prime minister clearly served at the pleasure of the king. The prime minister’s authority took nothing away from the king. In fact, he served only in accordance with the king’s will.


No offense taken, I rather like it when a faith I mention is represented here by a member of that faith. This way both sides of a discussion can be fairly represented. Your example of the Council of Nicea makes my point as well emoticon . The bishops at the Council of Nicea turned not to tradition but to the word of God (specifically John 10:30 and John 14:28) to determine the truth and it was on the basis of the word of God that the ruling against Arianism was made.



That's great Pastor.

My reason for using the Council of Nicea was to point out one example of what Catholics would consider part of Sacred Tradition. The authoritative definition of Christ’s nature defined in the creed at that council became part of the Sacred Tradition Catholics recognize that helps us properly understand Sacred Scripture. For example, this Sacred Tradition defined by the Council and united with the Sacred Scripture contained in the Gospel of John, ensures the Catholic Church teaches correct doctrine about the nature of Christ.

You may have come across “Yahwists” who claim to use Sacred Scripture as their sole authority, yet they deny the divinity of Christ. They sound very Christian and even Evangelical, until the discussion turns to Christ’s Divinity and the Trinity. They’ll quote Scripture up and down to support their views, yet we know that they are preaching an old heresy very similar, if not the same as Arianism. Because we accept the teachings of the Bishops at Nicea on the orthodox Christological understanding of Sacred Scripture, we know these Yahwists are in error.

With regards to the Council using Scripture to rule against Arius’ teachings, you are absolutely right that they used Scripture as an essential basis of their rulings against Arius. However, based on my amateur study, I do not believe the Bishops at Nicea used Sacred Scripture alone. Because Arius and his followers also used Scripture to support their doctrines, the orthodox interpretation of Scripture was in contest.

The Bishops knew that Arius’ teachings weren’t orthodox because those teachings contradicted Apostolic traditions on Christ historically taught by the Bishops. The Apostolic traditions had taught the correct interpretation of certain passages for over 400 years at that point. IOW, they didn’t just use Sacred Scripture, but also looked to the “Traditional” interpretation of Scripture to test Arius’ novel interpretations. Not only that, but they used their ecclesiastic authority to anathemize Arius’ teachings and protect the orthodox view of Christ. They also used precise language to define orthodox teaching and to promulgate it for all time. Arius’ followers criticized the Council’s teachings as being “unscriptural” because some of the terms they used weren’t found explicitly in Scripture. We are both beneficiaries of those struggles against Arianism.

At least from my amateur study of the Council of Nicea, which is based on documents from the Council and St. Athanasius’ writings, I understand that the Council’s findings weren’t based on Scripture alone. In addition to Scripture, the Bishops also based their findings on their understanding of Apostolic Tradition. As a result of refuting Arius’ novel interpretations, the Council more clearly defined the orthodox understanding of the nature of Christ and a correct understanding of Sacred Scripture. The reason the Bishops’ findings were considered authoritative, wasn’t because of Scripture alone, but also because of the accepted teaching authority of the Council (i.e., the Bishops united as a body) in the Church.



So from my viewpoint, since tradtions can and do change while the Bible will never change the chief source of authority should always be the Bible in matters of life and faith.



I totally agree that “t”raditions (in Catholic”ese” they might be called “disciplines”) can, do, and should change. I also agree that correct Biblical teaching never changes and that it is an essential guide to faith and life.

But I also submit that Sacred Apostolic “T”radition (such as the nature of Christ clearly defined at Nicea) handed down from the Apostles to the Bishops and on to their successors, does not change. From a Catholic viewpoint, it is this Tradition (given to us by the Spirit), that helps us properly understand Sacred Scripture and keep us from heresy.

I know this is a major point of disagreement between us. But I say it is a blessing that our views on Christ are so similar, even though you view Scripture alone as God’s Word, and I view Scripture and Sacred Tradition (such as taught by the Council of Nicea) as God’s Word.

Yours In Christ,
Andy emoticon

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Catholic P and F
Oct/18/2006, 9:10 am Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Andy,

I do have a reply coming however I just had a bombshell land in my e-mail which means it might be a couple of days before I can reply properly (my main website host is going away and I have to find a new one and transfer everything over in less than two weeks).

I am not ignoring you or your post, just have to take care of this pronto and my website is large enough it will take awhile to transfer properly.

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Oct/18/2006, 11:09 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
AndyS333 Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Pastor Rick.

No worries. I'm sorry to hear that. Take your time. I'm pretty busy myself.

I was secretly praying you'd take a while to reply because I don't have the time to make any lengthy responses right now, anyway. emoticon

Again, I didn't intend to start a lengthy discussion or debate. But I'm more than willing to share and listen.

Eventually, I'd like to discuss our respective views of the "Solas" and see where we disagree and agree on doctrine.

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Catholic P and F
Oct/18/2006, 11:29 pm Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
Hasah Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


God is unchanging, man can change whatever he wants but God is constant. The Holy Spirit is our mediator and our guide, sola scriptura is based on the Bible and not the traditions (big t or little t) of man. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever regardless of what man attempts.

 emoticon is the rock!

Last edited by Hasah, Oct/22/2006, 11:19 pm
Oct/22/2006, 11:11 pm Link to this post  
 
AndyS333 Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation



God is unchanging, man can change whatever he wants but God is constant.



Amen. Man can only TRY to change whatever he wants. Man cannot change the TRUTH no matter how much he wants to (e.g., trying to redefine marriage).

The TRUTH of God does not change. But would you say that God changes the way He deals with mankind throughout history? For example, the Law of the Old Testament and the New Testament of Grace. Would you say that humanity can gain a better understanding of God and revealed Truth? For example, the precise definition of Christ's nature at the Council of Nicea?

IOW, God does not change, but humanity's understanding of Him has improved as He revealed Himself to us throughout salvation history. For example, the Jews did not view God as Trinity (I'm not sure He had revealed Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament writings), yet He always was. They were scandalized by the revelation that Jesus was both human AND Divine and that He would suffer and die on the cross for our sins. It contradicted their understanding of God, yet it was the TRUTH.


The Holy Spirit is our mediator and our guide,



Yes! The hard part is listening, obeying, and getting past our own pride to hear Him and allow Him to work in us.


sola scriptura is based on the Bible and not the traditions (big t or little t) of man.



I disagree, I see it as man made tradition (little "t"). But this subject has been beat to death in the public debate forum since the Reformation. I'm okay with agreeing to disagree on that.


God is the same yesterday, today, and forever regardless of what man attempts.



Amen!

Last edited by AndyS333, Oct/23/2006, 12:58 pm


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Catholic P and F
Oct/23/2006, 8:29 am Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
praying4patience Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation



For example, the Jews did not view God as Trinity (I'm not sure He had revealed Himself as Trinity in the Old Testament writings), yet He always was.

Actually it's there Andy but the Church discerned this.(Genesis;let *US* make man in our image and likeness)

Ppl take a lot of Tradition for granted.IE trinity,ex nihilio creation, true nature of Jesus..and much more. What they don't realize it was the Church passing down these apostolic truths that we have come to accept them now.Of course,from the beginning the Church had to defeat heresies that denied what was handed down by apostolic tradition.

Tradition=apostolic tradition.Jesus never told the apostles to write a book.He commanded them to PREACH and to hold fast to those traditions they had given them by letter OR by WORD OF MOUTH.

It was the Church that discerned the inspired books of scripture and its canon.In fact the Church was preaching what was handed down long before the NT was even written!
GB!~
p4p

Here's an interesting verse from scripture:

Two believers are having a dispute and cannot settle it.What does scripture say they should do? Take it to the Church.The question then is....?


Last edited by praying4patience, Oct/24/2006, 6:12 pm


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Oct/23/2006, 11:17 pm Link to this post Send Email to praying4patience   Send PM to praying4patience Blog
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi everyone,

Over in our Bible forum we have been doing a study in the Gospel of John and got sidetracked into a discussion on Sola Fide (otherwise known as the doctrine of "by faith alone" for those who are protestants emoticon).

Anyway, to prevent that forum from becoming overburdened we will be continuing that part of our discussion over here where it really should be...

If you want to see what has gone on prior to this here is a link back to the Bible Study that started it The Gospel of John 1:1-14 - Bible Study.


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Jan/6/2007, 3:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 


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