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Tallylily Profile
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Re: Dunk sprinkle or wash?


IN the scripture you posted mark 16:16 are you calling Jesus a liar here? emoticon When Jesus tells us we must be babtized in order to be saved, he must be telling us that their is something we need to do on our part of obedience. emoticon

Last edited by Tallylily, Jun/9/2006, 8:50 pm


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Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it.
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Jun/9/2006, 8:45 pm Link to this post Send Email to Tallylily   Send PM to Tallylily
 
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Re: Dunk sprinkle or wash?


Tallylilly said
______________________________________________________________________________________
IN the scripture you posted mark 16:16 are you calling Jesus a liar here? When Jesus tells us we must be babtized in order to be saved, he must be telling us that their is something we need to do on our part of obedience.
______________________________________________________________________________________

14Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

 19So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

 20And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.


If you take that verse in context with the other verses and then go back and look again you get a different view.
If you have to be baptised to be saved then do you have to all these other things too.
JESUS says these signs shall follow them that believe. So if I can't handle a serpent or put my hands on somebody and heal them, or cast out a devil or speak with tongues then I am not saved? What if I can only do three of the four?

How about John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 No mention of Baptism here and JESUS said it. So are you implying that HE lied here?

We must be careful how we take things and sometimes twist them because we don't understand it all or we read one verse and don't take it into context.

I am reminded of the old story where the preacher was telling one of his members that you have to do everything the bible says. And one of his members gave him 2 verses of scripture to read.
 The first one was Matthew 27:5
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.
 The second one was part of Luke 10: 37
Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

 That is what happens when we take scriptures out of context or without enough prayer and study.

I believe that the only thing we must do to receive salvation is just what John 3:16 says.
 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU!!!!

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Jun/9/2006, 11:42 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Junior   Send PM to Pastor Junior
 
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Re: Dunk sprinkle or wash?


Why is it that everyone knows what John 3:16 says but not what came before here...

Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
 
Wesley Commentary
Joh 3:5 - Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit - Except he experience that great inward change by the Spirit, and be baptized (wherever baptism can be had) as the outward sign and means of it.

Barnes commmentary
Joh 3:5 -
Be born of water - By “water,” here, is evidently signified “baptism.” Thus the word is used in Eph_5:26; Tit_3:5. Baptism was practiced by the Jews in receiving a Gentile as a proselyte. It was practiced by John among the Jews; and Jesus here says that it is an ordinance of his religion, and the sign and seal of the renewing influences of his Spirit. So he said Mar_16:16, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” It is clear from these places, and from the example of the apostles Act_2:38, Act_2:41; Act_8:12-13, Act_8:36, Act_8:38; Act_9:18; Act_10:47-48; Act_16:15, Act_16:33; Act_18:8; Act_22:16; Gal_3:27, that they considered this ordinance as binding on all who professed to love the Lord Jesus. And though it cannot be said that none who are not baptized can be saved, yet Jesus meant, undoubtedly, to be understood as affirming that this was to be the regular and uniform way of entering into his church; that it was the appropriate mode of making a profession of religion; and that a man who neglected this, when the duty was made known to him, neglected a plain command of God. It is clear, also, that any other command of God might as well be neglected or violated as this, and that it is the duty of everyone not only to love the Saviour, but to make an acknowledgment of that love by being baptized, and by devoting himself thus to his service.
But, lest Nicodemus should suppose that this was all that was meant, he added that it was necessary that he should “be born of the Spirit” also. This was predicted of the Saviour, that he should “baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire,” Mat_3:11. By this is clearly intended that the heart must be changed by the agency of the Holy Spirit; that the love of sin must be abandoned; that man must repent of crime and turn to God; that he must renounce all his evil propensities, and give himself to a life of prayer and holiness, of meekness, purity, and benevolence. This great change is in the Scripture ascribed uniformly to the Holy Spirit, Tit_3:5; 1Th_1:6; Rom_5:5; 1Pe_1:22.
Cannot enter into - This is the way, the appropriate way, of entering into the kingdom of the Messiah here and hereafter. He cannot enter into the true church here, or into heaven in the world to come, except in connection with a change of heart, and by the proper expression of that change in the ordinances appointed by the Saviour.


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Because strait is the gate and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life and few there be that find it.
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Jun/10/2006, 12:24 am Link to this post Send Email to Tallylily   Send PM to Tallylily
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: Dunk sprinkle or wash?



Tallylily wrote:

IN the scripture you posted mark 16:16 are you calling Jesus a liar here? emoticon When Jesus tells us we must be babtized in order to be saved, he must be telling us that their is something we need to do on our part of obedience. emoticon



Tally, you are starting out with the premise that Gary called Jesus a liar and this just isn't supported by his post. You owe him an apology for this.

Now concerning your post, you are reversing the order of events to get to your conclusion and this isn't a good thing. Paul tells us plainly:


Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.



Can you see the order of events here?
1. By God's Grace we are saved by Faith.
2. Not of ourselves, it is all of God.
3. No works are required by us of any kind for salvation.
4. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. AFTER salvation Christ Jesus has good works he wants us to do. Amoung the first of these is baptism. This is what God has ordained.

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Jun/10/2006, 2:04 am Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
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No One Is Calling Jesus A Liar


And the Owner of this board says again No One Is Calling Jesus A Liar.

My friends, please remember that this is a CHRISTIAN message board and as of the date I am posting this everyone who is a member of this board is also a professing believer in Jesus Christ as thier Savior.

We may indeed disagree on interpretation of scripture but let me share a secret with you if I may...

To lie is to decieve and is contrary to God's nature. A Liar is one who makes a practice of being contrary to the nature of God.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

Hebrews 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

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Jun/10/2006, 2:34 am Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
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Re: No One Is Calling Jesus A Liar



Tally, you are starting out with the premise that Gary called Jesus a liar and this just isn't supported by his post. You owe him an apology for this.



Thank you Rick, but not necessary. People are fooled all over by false teachings/preachers. I din't mean to get a controversy started, but i think the truth will stand when nothing else will. I post things upon my beliefs, some agree, some dont. I get named called sometimes(by "christians"), sometimes people thank me for pointing out things they didn't realize. In conculsion....the bottom line is Jesus defeated death/the grave and hell. He died a cruel death for all human beings because he loved us that much emoticon

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Re: No One Is Calling Jesus A Liar


Hi Gary,


garycg wrote:

Thank you Rick, but not necessary. People are fooled all over by false teachings/preachers. I din't mean to get a controversy started...emoticon



I don't mind controversy, or debate, or disagreements Gary and believe it or not I have been called a few names myself. This is to be expected given that we are still in the flesh. However, the reason for my post is a matter of defending the faith. You can call me names but don't even think about calling my Savior names without getting a response from me.

I saw a billboard the otherday that said it best:

When you swear, use your own name:
signed: GOD


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Jun/10/2006, 2:39 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
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Re: No One Is Calling Jesus A Liar




I saw a billboard the otherday that said it best:
When you swear, use your own name:
signed:GOD



I like that saying, i believe i'll use that on some people i know at work

 emoticon

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Re: Dunk sprinkle or wash?


  I certainly did not mean to say anyone was actually calling JESUS a liar, and after reading my post again it does sound that way and for that I do apologize.
 However I will never apologize for my beliefs. If you look at John 3: 3-7 I believe that I can explain it.
  
3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

3-Jesus says a man must be born again indicating 2 births.

4 Nicodemus ask can a man enter the second time into his mothers womb.

5 Jesus says except aman be born of water and of the spirit (2 Births)he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. ( A child is carried in the birth fluids (Water) until his mother gives birth and the "Water Breaks" (1st Birth) Then when he accepts JESUS as LORD and SAVIOR he receives Spiritual Birth (2nd Birth no baptism)

6 JESUS says that which is born of the flesh (WATER BIRTH) is flesh, that which is born of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT (NO WATER)

7 JESUS says Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (born again 2nd BIRTH)

MORE FROM JOHN

 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (No mention of Baptism)

 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (No mention of Baptism)


 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (No mention of Baptism)


 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: (No mention of Baptism)
 but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



Yes I believe that we should all be baptised, if possible, to show publicly that we have accepted JESUS as LORD AND SAVIOR. But I also believe that baptism is not a requirement to be saved because this is something that you do therfore it is works and no one can be saved by their works.

Matthew 7:21-23 (King James Version)

 21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
 

John 6:27-29 (King James Version)

 27Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

 28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

 29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.


My final word on the subject.

Titus 3:9 (King James Version)
 9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

So we should all avoid these questions and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; because they do nothing to further the KINGDOM OF GOD and only cause discension between CHRISTIANS which keeps them from witnessing to those who are unsaved. If you really believe that you must be baptised to receive salvation then explain what happened to the theif on the cross.

I can only speak what GOD reveals to me and when I speak (write) it I will not apologize for what GOD has put in my heart and mouth to say.

I do believe that these boards are good for lifting each other up and for answering some questions for others but if they cause strife between Christians are they really doing GOD'S work?

MAY GOD BLESS ALL OF YOU!!!

Pastor Junior
Jun/10/2006, 7:29 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Junior   Send PM to Pastor Junior
 
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Re: Dunk sprinkle or wash?


I agree baptism is commanded however, again the thief on the cross;

Luke 23:43 KJV
(43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If a person is not able to be baptized due to circumstance, I don't believe they would be turned away. It's a preferred step to follow salvation but not all would be able to do it.

It was heavy on my heart about being baptized, God's way, not the RCC way. And repentance is something we keep doing as none of us have arrived yet and we won't until Jesus brings us home. We all keep dying to self, running the race.

Last edited by Hasah, Jun/10/2006, 7:34 pm
Jun/10/2006, 7:33 pm Link to this post  
 


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