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Sola Scriptura


Hi there Hasah!

I was starting to think you had left us. I mean, if you are even half as busy as I am and your board gets active you just don't have enough time in the day to do everything you know?

I sure am glad I was wrong though and am happy to see you can still take a little time to drop by and visit every now and then emoticon

Each of us must deal with our past but thank God we don't have to do it alone because Jesus said in Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

As to the Catholic Connection, I don't even consider it beyond the declarative sense as a topic. By this I mean the 5 Solas declaration represent a basis points of contention concerning authority and the Church (capital C for my Catholic readers). Some people can talk about this without getting upset and some can not. This is the reason the concept of Sola Scriptura is so important for both sides. The position I take is that the final authority in any matter concerning life has got to be the actual revealed words and truth given to us by our Creator in his Word (eg the Bible). The Catholic position (in a nutshell) is that there is a dual authority between God and the Church.

When we discuss this issue with each other it is important to remember that we are speaking to each other as human beings or we can easily start shouting at the computer and that does nothing. So take a moment to pray and by all means if someone says something you never considered before don't be afraid to admit it. That fear, and how a person responds to it, is what starts the flame wars where everyone gets hurt in the long run and nothing is ever decided by it.

Run the race, keep the author of your salvation before you, and even when it is hard consider the joy set before you when you finish emoticon

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Oct/8/2006, 8:57 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
Hasah Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


I know, I wouldn't give up Jesus for anything.
 emoticon

Last edited by Hasah, Oct/8/2006, 9:26 pm
Oct/8/2006, 9:21 pm Link to this post  
 
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


I sum up my thoughts on it best here;

Struggle

Has anyone else ever come out of one belief system that you’ve questioned and battled with and can’t help seeing things not right in it. Even at times there may be part of you wanting to see something right in it and you do but there are too many contradictions. You don’t want to hurt people still in that belief system and you lost someone close (maybe a few) to you because of standing up for what you believe as opposed to what you were raised in. I’m at the point; I have to stand for what I believe. That touches into several areas lately and sometimes I think I border being offensive though I don’t mean to be.

I come across material like Paul Washer with his shocking youth message. Or the atheist on Living Waters so plainly laying out what every Christian walk should stand for, the importance of spreading the good news, and then the shock to hear him say he is an atheist. I think about a friend who passed away at the end of 2004 and I know how strong she was on my heart and I was silent. Then I feel I’m being petty about my own worries and concerns in life as life is temporary, we’re talking about the eternity of souls.

Father God, help me keep Your message first in my heart and mind always regardless of what it may cost. If I offend then so be it, sometimes our own sorry status as sinners is very offensive to us but it’s only through Jesus that we have any hope.
Oct/9/2006, 1:01 pm Link to this post  
 
AndyS333 Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation



The position I take is that the final authority in any matter concerning life has got to be the actual revealed words and truth given to us by our Creator in his Word (eg the Bible). The Catholic position (in a nutshell) is that there is a dual authority between God and the Church.



Hi there Pastor Rick!

Just want to add a minor clarification to the "nutshell" Catholic position. The Church's authority is similar to the relationship between a King and his prime minister and is based on the Church's relationship to Christ as His Body and Bride. The prime minister's authority flows from the King. His Body continues His saving work until the end of time.

Another way to describe Catholic belief in contrast to the Bible alone would be that Catholics believe there are two sources of Divine Revelation (i.e., God's Word) that spring from the same source of Truth: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Because they are from the same source, they cannot contradict each other, but instead complement and overlap each other.

The Council of Nicea that authoritatively defined the nature of Christ would be an example of Sacred Tradition given to us by the Spirit that complements, overlaps, and helps us properly understand Sacred Scripture.

No intention to argue who's right or wrong, just clarify the Catholic position with regard to one of the "Solas."


When we discuss this issue with each other it is important to remember that we are speaking to each other as human beings or we can easily start shouting at the computer and that does nothing. So take a moment to pray and by all means if someone says something you never considered before don't be afraid to admit it. That fear, and how a person responds to it, is what starts the flame wars where everyone gets hurt in the long run and nothing is ever decided by it.



Amen!

God bless!

Last edited by AndyS333, Oct/16/2006, 10:20 pm


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Oct/16/2006, 4:13 pm Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Andy,


AndyS333 says:
Just want to add a minor clarification to the "nutshell" Catholic position. The Church's authority is similar to the relationship between a King and his prime minister and is based on the Church's relationship to Christ as His Body and Bride. The prime minister's authority flows from the King. His Body continues His saving work until the end of time.



The trouble with your analogy here is that in the present day the true power rests not with the monarch but with the prime minister (even though technically speaking the monarch does have a veto authority it is never used). This makes the Prime Minister the de facto head of state with the monarch placed in a ceremonial position. I am positive this is not what you mean is it?


AndyS333 says:
Another way to describe Catholic belief in contrast to the Bible alone would be that Catholics believe there are two sources of Divine Revelation (i.e., God's Word) that spring from the same source of Truth: Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Because they are from the same source, they cannot contradict each other, but instead complement and overlap each other.

The Council of Nicea that authoritatively defined the nature of Christ would be an example of Sacred Tradition given to us by the Spirit that complements, overlaps, and helps us properly understand Sacred Scripture.

No intention to argue who's right or wrong, just clarify the Catholic position with regard to one of the "Solas."



No offense taken, I rather like it when a faith I mention is represented here by a member of that faith. This way both sides of a discussion can be fairly represented. Your example of the Council of Nicea makes my point as well emoticon. The bishops at the Council of Nicea turned not to tradition but to the word of God (specifically John 10:30 and John 14:28) to determine the truth and it was on the basis of the word of God that the ruling against Arianism was made.

So from my viewpoint, since tradtions can and do change while the Bible will never change the chief source of authority should always be the Bible in matters of life and faith.


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Oct/16/2006, 10:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Pastor Rick,

You make some good points. As I said, I didn't intend to start a debate, but I do plan on responding to your points. Hopefully, in a day or two.

Maybe by discussing our differences further, we will both understand each other and even our own positions better.

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Oct/17/2006, 12:32 pm Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
Susan Blair Profile
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Registered: 06-2006
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi,

I really like it when everybody can talk about how they believe without getting into a fight emoticon

Makes me feel like I can really learn something instead of picking sides...

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God Bless You,
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Oct/17/2006, 12:37 pm Link to this post Send Email to Susan Blair   Send PM to Susan Blair
 
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Me too Susan. I totally agree. The internet is riddled with "competitions" where no one learns anything.

IMO, dialogue should be about learning and coming to the truth together, not about winning a debate.

We won't agree on everything, and there truly is objective truth to be preached and defended. Preaching the truth in charity allows the Spirit to move among us. Without charity, the truth will sound as a clanging gong.

At least we can try to understand the other guys' point of view before attacking it. I've found most folks have sound reasons for holding their beliefs, even if I believe they're in error. Most reasonable people don't fit the typical stereotypes that are out there.

Liked what you had to say. That's why I had to reply instead of researching a response to Pastor Rick. I'll get to your post Pastor, God willing.

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Oct/17/2006, 1:51 pm Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Pastor Rick,


The trouble with your analogy here is that in the present day the true power rests not with the monarch but with the prime minister (even though technically speaking the monarch does have a veto authority it is never used). This makes the Prime Minister the de facto head of state with the monarch placed in a ceremonial position. I am positive this is not what you mean is it?



No, that is NOT what I meant. Thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt and recognizing that, Pastor.

I don’t see the prime minister in the way you describe. That sounds like the modern United Kingdom model. Instead, I meant a prime minister in the Old Testament model, especially in the Davidic Kingdom, or even under Solomon. In that model, I don’t believe that “true power” rested in the hands of the prime minister, or that the prime minister was the de facto head of state with the monarch placed in a ceremonial position. Instead, the king delegated certain authority to the prime minister to help him govern and the prime minister clearly served at the pleasure of the king. The prime minister’s authority took nothing away from the king. In fact, he served only in accordance with the king’s will.


No offense taken, I rather like it when a faith I mention is represented here by a member of that faith. This way both sides of a discussion can be fairly represented. Your example of the Council of Nicea makes my point as well emoticon . The bishops at the Council of Nicea turned not to tradition but to the word of God (specifically John 10:30 and John 14:28) to determine the truth and it was on the basis of the word of God that the ruling against Arianism was made.



That's great Pastor.

My reason for using the Council of Nicea was to point out one example of what Catholics would consider part of Sacred Tradition. The authoritative definition of Christ’s nature defined in the creed at that council became part of the Sacred Tradition Catholics recognize that helps us properly understand Sacred Scripture. For example, this Sacred Tradition defined by the Council and united with the Sacred Scripture contained in the Gospel of John, ensures the Catholic Church teaches correct doctrine about the nature of Christ.

You may have come across “Yahwists” who claim to use Sacred Scripture as their sole authority, yet they deny the divinity of Christ. They sound very Christian and even Evangelical, until the discussion turns to Christ’s Divinity and the Trinity. They’ll quote Scripture up and down to support their views, yet we know that they are preaching an old heresy very similar, if not the same as Arianism. Because we accept the teachings of the Bishops at Nicea on the orthodox Christological understanding of Sacred Scripture, we know these Yahwists are in error.

With regards to the Council using Scripture to rule against Arius’ teachings, you are absolutely right that they used Scripture as an essential basis of their rulings against Arius. However, based on my amateur study, I do not believe the Bishops at Nicea used Sacred Scripture alone. Because Arius and his followers also used Scripture to support their doctrines, the orthodox interpretation of Scripture was in contest.

The Bishops knew that Arius’ teachings weren’t orthodox because those teachings contradicted Apostolic traditions on Christ historically taught by the Bishops. The Apostolic traditions had taught the correct interpretation of certain passages for over 400 years at that point. IOW, they didn’t just use Sacred Scripture, but also looked to the “Traditional” interpretation of Scripture to test Arius’ novel interpretations. Not only that, but they used their ecclesiastic authority to anathemize Arius’ teachings and protect the orthodox view of Christ. They also used precise language to define orthodox teaching and to promulgate it for all time. Arius’ followers criticized the Council’s teachings as being “unscriptural” because some of the terms they used weren’t found explicitly in Scripture. We are both beneficiaries of those struggles against Arianism.

At least from my amateur study of the Council of Nicea, which is based on documents from the Council and St. Athanasius’ writings, I understand that the Council’s findings weren’t based on Scripture alone. In addition to Scripture, the Bishops also based their findings on their understanding of Apostolic Tradition. As a result of refuting Arius’ novel interpretations, the Council more clearly defined the orthodox understanding of the nature of Christ and a correct understanding of Sacred Scripture. The reason the Bishops’ findings were considered authoritative, wasn’t because of Scripture alone, but also because of the accepted teaching authority of the Council (i.e., the Bishops united as a body) in the Church.



So from my viewpoint, since tradtions can and do change while the Bible will never change the chief source of authority should always be the Bible in matters of life and faith.



I totally agree that “t”raditions (in Catholic”ese” they might be called “disciplines”) can, do, and should change. I also agree that correct Biblical teaching never changes and that it is an essential guide to faith and life.

But I also submit that Sacred Apostolic “T”radition (such as the nature of Christ clearly defined at Nicea) handed down from the Apostles to the Bishops and on to their successors, does not change. From a Catholic viewpoint, it is this Tradition (given to us by the Spirit), that helps us properly understand Sacred Scripture and keep us from heresy.

I know this is a major point of disagreement between us. But I say it is a blessing that our views on Christ are so similar, even though you view Scripture alone as God’s Word, and I view Scripture and Sacred Tradition (such as taught by the Council of Nicea) as God’s Word.

Yours In Christ,
Andy emoticon

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Oct/18/2006, 9:10 am Link to this post Send Email to AndyS333   Send PM to AndyS333
 
Pastor Rick Profile
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Re: The 5 Solas of the Reformation


Hi Andy,

I do have a reply coming however I just had a bombshell land in my e-mail which means it might be a couple of days before I can reply properly (my main website host is going away and I have to find a new one and transfer everything over in less than two weeks).

I am not ignoring you or your post, just have to take care of this pronto and my website is large enough it will take awhile to transfer properly.

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Oct/18/2006, 11:09 pm Link to this post Send Email to Pastor Rick   Send PM to Pastor Rick Blog
 


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